“What do you mean we have to sit at the back?”
I stared incredulously at the mosque representative. About 10 men already sat on the bus waiting for an organized student trip to Montreal – and they were occupying the front seats. A group of six women were standing in the cold waiting for my standoff to end.
I argued that we had mixed classes together, that this was a social trip, that the bus was secular ground, that there was no religious reason why we had to be segregated on a bus, and asked why the women were being forced to the back. I was told that despite the trip being social, we should always maintain proper Islamic decorum, that I wasn’t being culturally sensitive to the needs of the bothers who were accustomed to gender segregated spaces, and that they would feel more comfortable not staring at women for the 4 hour trip. “And what about us? Do you think we want to be staring at you?”
He wasn’t going to budge. The least I was able to negotiate was to get all of the men to disembark first so we could get on the bus without having to brush their knees as we passed. I was furious.
Sex segregation in the mosque made sense to me when I first converted. I was interested in learning about my new religion, and was not necessarily on the lookout for social inequities. I probably wouldn’t have been able to see them anyway, since I was still the starry-eyed new convert, and often celebrated the great rights and status that Islam affords women, over recognizing that things weren’t often practiced in the same way.
I did eventually start questioning more frequently when men and women also had to sit in different sections during lecture series, during community dinners, and even during movie nights at the mosque – but the reasons I was given seemed to make sense, so I didn’t argue further. Often I was told that Islam curtails interactions between the sexes to help decrease the chances that an unrelated man and woman would be left alone together. Also, that it discouraged physical touching between potential marriageable partners – which could lead one to temptation and the eventual transgression of pre/extra-marital sex.
Then when I put on the hijab, I accepted an even stricter understanding of the rules of engagement between the sexes, and self imposed a manner of speaking and acting I thought was expected of the truly pious. I avoided looking at men, rarely spoke to men directly, and if I did it was with downcast eyes and with a firm, no-nonsense tone of voice. I let men walk in front of me and stopped shaking hands. I cut off ties to many of my non-Muslim male friends and stopped frivolous, non-work related conversations with my Muslim male friends. My actions were applauded by many in the community, and like-minded sisters used me as an example of a model Muslim at women only events. Together we arrogantly argued that western modes of interaction were shameful — and the pain of socially isolating ourselves seemed to be worth whatever spiritual gains we were receiving for acting in the appropriate “Islamic” fashion.
My tipping point came almost a year later, when I saw a leader within the conservative community chatting up a non-Muslim female student. He looked her directly in the eyes, smiled, joked, laughed, and even touched her elbow. While the last time he spoke with me, for an event planning meeting at the mosque, he did so through a barrier. We never had interactions outside of the barrier, and if we passed each other on the street, he would look beyond me, never acknowledging my existence.
The double standard burned me. Apparently, because I was a liberated, cherished and elevated Muslim woman, erasing me was more respectful than interacting with me through western mores. And if I felt that direct interaction showed more respect, well then I was just dealing with leftover, misguided non-Muslim belief systems – and should instead follow the perfected Islamic guidance without question. He was protecting me and safeguarding my religion.
Through various sources from the Qur’an and prophetic traditions, it’s argued that men and women must behave modestly, avoid physical contact, guard their gaze and avoid khlawa or the seclusion of one or more men with one woman in a locked room. When a man and two or more women are alone together, it’s no longer considered khalwa, and is a permissible gathering. There are many examples from the prophetic traditions that it is permissible for men and women to work, eat and interact together, as long as standards of modesty, hospitality and general friendly regard are maintained.
The popular reason given for gender segregation is that when unrelated men and woman are alone together, all kinds of nasty things can happen. The devil is in the details — literally, with many imagining that Satan creates the ultimate threesome: Whenever a man is alone with a woman the Devil makes a third. (Bukhari) Avoiding khalwa protects men from being tempted and women from being harmed.
The 1:2 gender interaction ratio, plus recommendations to avoid physical contact are often used as valid arguments to apply gender segregation to Muslim gatherings, public spaces and has become the norm in some cultures. Sometimes it results in asking women to ride at the back of buses, in reinforcing gender stereotypes, in women being physically assaulted for daring to take public transit, or recently, it results in unmarried couples being rounded up and arrested for celebrating Valentine’s Day in parks or motel rooms.
The onus of sexual segregation is often placed on women. We’re the ones in hijab (which is supposed to guard against immodesty regardless), we’re the ones who tempt men and who need protection from the actions of men when we tempt them. But as I always seem to be saying, simply assuming that men and women are incapable of controlling their desires is offensive. What if you’re just not in to the opposite sex or are intergender? Not only are you never represented, but you could have a veritable field day, or be emotionally tortured by being trapped within gender secluded groups.
Many men and women do feel more comfortable in a sex segregated atmosphere, or at least having the option of retreating to male- or female-only spaces. Because I wear hijab, there are certain activities where I feel more comfortable being in a female-only space. While I do work out and swim with Eryn in co-ed situations — while wearing a fully covering suit and hijab — I still enjoy working out and swimming with my hair flying free, which is something I choose to do with other women and my close male relatives.
The lines of segregation can also be fluid, with married couples and children often running between the two sections. Even the most conservative groups at times have space where men and women work together. Then you have the groups that don’t necessarily worry about gender segregation, and those that provide a middle ground of the “family section” — where groups of Muslim families all interact within one space.
These are just my initial thoughts on the subject. Reflecting back on the times where I felt like I was being forced, coerced, and convinced of gender segregation, I now realize that a lot of it had to do with genuine fear of transgressing boundaries and of choosing extremes to safeguard religion and culture. The implications of this as a source of power over others is something I’d like to explore further in a future series of discussions.
Cross posted at Womanist Musings.
February 17, 2011 at 1:21 pm
We had a ski trip at Univ of Toronto. If I remember right the men were on the left side and the women were on the right side. But that was equal number of men and women skiers, and the president was a decent guy. I don’t know how it is now.
February 17, 2011 at 3:38 pm
My alma matter had its ups and downs — with one generation of brilliant female leadership being replaced 10 years later by a “salafesque” group who threw up barriers willy nilly without input from the women, who threw out the Shia’ members and discouraged all social events. I hear things are better now though.
At the MSA level I really think one’s interaction with the community depends on who’s in charge and how much they’re willing to accomodate everyone. There will always be descent and not so descent guys and gals.
February 17, 2011 at 7:46 pm
I’ve noticed the double standard you mentioned since I was very young, how it was socially acceptable for Muslim men to interact with non-Muslim women but the other way around is scandalous and the Muslim woman would immediately be labelled “indecent.” I remember feeling like I’d failed God if I so much shook hands with a man. Realizing the double standard was a wake-up call.
February 17, 2011 at 7:49 pm
My spouse wants me to be the kind of muslim woman who doesn’t talk to men, goes into another room when there’s visitors etc. I am not so compliant after all… You can’t change my personality. Well maybe I’ve changed some, but not really…never ran into issues with public events. I guess it was always seperated. And I do think when I was president of MSA there were very few members because maybe they didn’t want a woman leading? Just strange. I really don’t know what my opinion is on this. Most of my interactions with people are nonmuslims. At school 99 percent non muslim, at work 99 percent non muslim, so only in home do I encounter my husbands’ visitors…which they are not married…ok this was a longer reply than I thought.
February 18, 2011 at 11:35 am
Thanks for your reply — it’s actually quite fascinating. I’ve only known one other female president of the MSA, and it seemed that they just did more and were more inclusive as an organization when women were in leadership positions, and those who weren’t a fan opted out and tried to get into the leadership at a later time.
Which they did. Unfortunately.
February 17, 2011 at 7:51 pm
thank you for your honesty. it is so helpful to see how you are working through this. keep speaking out and pushing to change the paradigm.
February 18, 2011 at 11:36 am
Welcome liz — and thanks for the support.
February 17, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Assalamu Alaikum:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. And it’s true, gender discrimination and blatant hypocrisy is rampant in our communities. I understand your feelings of rage, especially as a someone who embraced Islam as a liberating force for women only to find that cultural practices all to often override Islamic principles.
We need more women (and men!) to speak out on this injustice and work to liberate ourselves and our communities.
Wa Salam.
February 18, 2011 at 12:12 am
Whenever I’ve seen this kind of gender segregation it seems so fake – especially in a university of our size and make up. The rest of the time men and women have to interact with each other in school, the workplace, and public transit…but all of a sudden people are going to pretend they never sit beside a person of the opposite gender because it’s a Mosque event? But the more problematic thing is that it doesn’t teach self control. It just teaches people how to pretend they are practicing self control. But then when they are faced with real life situations, or ‘hidden’ interactions like online chats and text messages, they don’t really know what is acceptable and how to really be appropriate without a chaperone. I know in the ideal there shouldn’t be any unrelated gender mixing…but in the real world it happens all the time-even in Muslim majority countries and thus people need to be taught how to interact in real life.
February 18, 2011 at 2:16 am
So a whole 30 min after commenting, I was waiting for feeding time to start at the water rat exhibit at the Kuala Lumpur aquarium when a man propositioned me. I think that proves my point. People (men??) need to learn how to conduct themselves in situations such as…say standing beside a non Muslim woman while looking at water rats.
February 18, 2011 at 11:42 am
Water rats, eh?
It’s because you’re non-Muslim (and white?) dear Msleetobe. You’re a free spirit, promiscuous, non-committal, not religious, have no morals, are okay with speaking to all men because you look them in the eye, are comfortable in close proximity to men because you shake hands, and certainly not virginal
February 18, 2011 at 12:11 pm
Pretend interactions are a very important point.
I think in some situations there are levels of standard decorum — such as covering in a church/temple/mosque, or even separating by gender within inner sanctums for prayer or other religious rights. But within the mosque community hall, the movies, restaurants, school trips, classrooms, the street etc, there is no need to then say, “Oh this is a Muslim school trip, so let’s act as pious as possible — as if we are in the inner sanctum.” Acting overtly “pious” doesn’t Islamify taking a stroll down down Rue St Catherine — especially when you’re going to come across your share of pubs and strip clubs.
What I didn’t touch upon was how much gender interactions there was during the Prophet’s time and in subsequent early Islamic generations. Yet, today we’re terrified. They interacted with decorum, adab, respect, and didn’t have today’s hypersensitivity.
But whenever this fact is referenced, I always hear the argument that today’s Muslims don’t cover enough, and are incapable of controlling their desires, so we can’t possibly interact like the early Muslims did. Which is just ridiculous.
February 19, 2011 at 9:23 pm
As others have said, thank you for your honesty — and for speaking the minds of many who either don’t know how to say it (e.g., me!) or don’t have the opportunity to say it. Or are simply afraid that they might be transgressing by expressing disagreement with such an “Islamic” custom.
I, too, have noted the double standards. You can’t talk to me, you can’t greet me, you can’t treat me like a human, but you’re gonna talk to, joke/laugh with, and greet a non-Muslim woman just because she’s already “immoral” anyway? What the hell’s up with that? But I’m sure there are Muslim women who treat non-Muslim men the same way that our hypocrite “brothers in Islam” treat non-Muslim women. I just haven’t come across it yet.
February 19, 2011 at 10:54 pm
Serenity,
I may be one of those ladies you have never seen. I won’t look, speak, acknowledge the existance of, surely not shake hands with a “brother” not out of piety but to prevent him thinking I want some of that or that i am shameless. I know all brothers aren’t this way but i learned quick many are.
However with the non-Muslim guys I act – well- normal. They may be spoken to- like people not barked at in a hostile tone, joked with even – I might even shake a hand if I am feeling frisky. He sure as heck wouldn’t think anything of it.
February 20, 2011 at 12:56 am
How true, Anne! If you do any of that with a “Muslim brother,” chances are, he’ll think you want something or that you’re an immodest or bad girl. But non-Muslim men are less likely, if at all, to think that.
I’m myself with non-Muslim guys and Muslim guys alike, but there are certain Muslim ethnic groups, like my own, that I just can’t be myself with the guys in… or, heck, even with the ladies! The standards are disturbingly different, so to maintain the same reputation, I feel like I must behave differently with them than with others.
That explains why I feel more comfortable with a non-Muslim male doctor than with a Muslim one, if I can’t get a female doctor.
February 22, 2011 at 12:31 pm
Excellent point Anne.
For a long time I also adjusted the way I acted around certain brothers out of the same reason. It grated on me so much that I felt I needed to pretend act piously just in case — so I stopped doing it. Now I treat everyone equally.
It’s all about the pretend part — because there is nothing saying that how I act normally is immodest or unpious. But it’s a shame that some women are made to feel inferior due to our “natural shamelessness” (ie: our gaze, our voices, etc). It’s sometimes just easier to be myself around non-Muslim men, liberal or progressive Muslim men because there isn’t any of the gender baggage.
I wonder though how many men also act extra reserved around Muslim women for this very same reason.
February 21, 2011 at 10:59 pm
I am sorry if this has already been said in the other comments (and I hope I don’t get banned for not reading all – am a bit rushed for time!):
I really enjoyed this post. I am at times very comfortable with gender segregation but there are other times when it’s done in a way to discriminate against women. I don’t enjoy having to sit away from my husband and my boys at segregated weddings for example. The men get the best seats and the best food at other functions, too. PLUS they get to eat before the women!
My pet hate is how gender segregation is used as a reason Muslim women are not permitted to work but since it’s a man’s duty to earn the money, it’s aOK for men to interact with women.
February 22, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Thanks for commenting Tasmiya! I haven’t banned anyone for anything yet (and I hope I never have to), so have no fear here.
I so dislike sitting away from the Hubby during weddings or conferences especially if I don’t know anyone, or he’s the emcee. Sometimes we’ve boycotted the situation and created our own impromptu family section.
And we definitely share the same pet peeve.
February 22, 2011 at 10:40 am
Ladies, although a non-muslim I understand your struggle. However, in Canada, women have been fighting for equality for over a century. We have made many leaps and bounds throughout the years, that include making discrimination for race, sex, religion GENDER etc, ILLEGAL. So if you lovely muslim ladies want equality, call the authorities to places where you are being discriminated against and have the LAW take care of it. Your religion ( like all religions) was written in ancient times and does not translate to modern society. All religions must change as segregation and discrimination against women is illegal in this country. Stop trying to justify illegality by quoting religious doctrine. You cannot bring other countries practices into this land, don’t you understand that all religions must comply by the laws of the land, not by outdated discriminatory practices from another time and another culture. Oh yes, women do not bow to men, women do not bow to anyone!
February 22, 2011 at 7:37 pm
This is a tremendous problem and undermines the capacity of Muslims to build organizations and participate meaningfully in society.
September 12, 2011 at 7:13 pm
So I am A) late to the party and B) picking up on something relatively minor, but other commenters have already covered most of the major issues. But as someone who suffers terribly from motion sickness, I would not be pleased about being sent to the back of the bus. Sitting closer at the front of a vehicle helps keep the motion sickness from getting too severe. Ah well, I guess at least I could take comfort in the fact that there wouldn’t be any brothers looking at me while I barfed all over the bus!
September 13, 2011 at 12:21 pm
Welcome floweryhedgehog! and thanks for commenting.
That’s a brilliant point actually. I know you brought up (haha) motion sickness, but it makes me wonder how many women with unseen disabilities are consistently disadvantaged when placed in these situations.
Whether it’s at the back of a bus, a poorly lit prayer area, lack of air conditioning — assuming that everyone is going to be okay in these situations is completely abelist as well as sexist (inconsiderate, problematic, etc…)
February 20, 2013 at 11:09 pm
[...] does not belong in a house of worship. That we’ve stopped attending mosques because of gender segregation, hostile prayer spaces, higher-than-thou attitudes, discrimination against mothers and their [...]